Dear Amit Sana prabhu, PAMHO, AGTSP.
I presume that you co-ordinate most of the Madhu's technical work and as I came across your site 'ISKCON Times', though its nice to post Srila Prabhupada's words on Guru Tattva, but sorry to say it but the most of your editors seem to be lacking the most rudimentary knowledge of the Siddhanta and the Sampradaic teachings. Otherwise, I personally prefer to stay away from these so called 'reform' debates, but seeing the atrocious of understanding that your men have on the Guru Tattva, I was forced to write to you. So I'm posting a small writeup on it (same which I sent your editors):
Dear Editor,
Its nice to see to you attempt to divulge into the Siddhanta for what otherwise would remain a topic of the esoterica. But what is the purpose of high high aggrandizing of supposedly proclaiming loyalty to the Archarya, when we don't even hold the capacity to understand the most fundamental concepts of Guru Tattva?
[PADA: Is Yuddhisthira dasa referencing the Gaudiya Matha's "guru tattva" wherein Sridhara Maharaja and company made homosexuals and deviants into their "acharyas" after 1936. And Narayana Maharaja then wrote a "Guru Tattva" booklet in 1997 (I have a copy) which says that "there was nothing wrong" with the 1936 homosexual acharya project very evidentally because, Narayana Maharaja also endorses homosexuals as acharyas? And both of them endorsed the GBC's homosexual pedophile guru lineage after 1977. Is this the "guru line" Yuddhisthira endorses? If so, which previous acharyas were homosexual pedophiles and which previous acharyas endorsed such lineages?
We have no idea because he does not say, but is appears Yuddhisthira is referencing the GBC whose acharyas are "engaged in illicit sex with men, women and children" after they accepted the post-1936 homosexual guru promoters - such as Sridhara maharaja and Narayana maharaja as their "shiksha guru advisors"? Yuddhisthira gives us no indication what guru lineage he is part of here? Or is he even in a guru line at all? Does he even accept anyone as his guru? The Goswamis would not even talk to a person unless they identified their lineage, and Lord Chaitanya's servants would not allow a person to converse with the Lord unless that person identified their lineage, but this Yuddhisthira fellow cannot even identify his own lineage? That means according to Srila Prabhupada -- he is his own guru, because he is not giving the name of his line?
In all Vedic debates one has to FIRST OF ALL identify: one's lineage, one's shastra, one's guru, and so on, and yet Yuddhisthira does not even know this etiquette? Yuddhisthira has no idea of Vedic etiquettes: one has to identify one's line of authority. Is Yuddhisthar a self made God-man with his own line? He is not part of a bona fide line or he would know this etiquette. According to Srila Prabhupada anyone who does not give the name of his guru and his line, he is a mayavadi, so the only thing this author has so far establised -- is that he is a mayavadi.]
YD: Yes, Pure devotee is the best Guru, but if have even attempted to study (what to speak of understanding!) the books of Srila Prabhupada and the Gaudiya acharya's carefully, you would know that Guru can be on any of 5 level based on his realization, so it would be preposterous to equate anyone and everyone with a Nityasiddha hoping to be on the same level at any given point of time.
[PADA: Where does Srila Prabhupada say that after he departs there will be five levels of gurus? Who is going to manage these five levels of gurus and which previous bona fide acharyas established this system of five levels of gurus? Who will determine who is on each of these five levels, .... ummm Mr. Yuddhisthira? OK, maybe, but so far he has not even identified who is an uttama in his system? Yuddhisthira is going to be the judge of who is on what of these five levels, but he cannot even identify the source of this concept -- that there are five types of gurus in our parampara? Where is this detailed by Srila Prabhupada and which previous acharyas ordered this system for after their departure? More importantly, where did Srila Prabhupada order this system of five types of gurus for ISKCON?]
YD: In Madhurya Kadambini, Srila Visvanath Cakravati mentions that even a Madhyama Adhikari can act as a Guru and in Harinam Cintamani Srila Bhaktivionda Thakur when he speaks on types of association, writes that of the Madhyam Adhikari is actually a very good sanga as he has freed himself from the gross anartha's and is determined in his goal. And more over he goes on say that of the types of association, the best one is with a Madhayama Adhikari.
[PADA: A Madhyama Adhikary is on the platform of anartha nrvritti, free from material desires, and yet the gurus promoted by the Gaudiya Matha and GBC are always caught being engaged in illicit sex with men, women and children, so they are not even kanisthas. Why are we discussing Madhyama when the people we are challenging are not even kanisthas? What does Madhyama level have to do with illicit sex acharyas, the topic at hand, anyway? In the "Nectar of Instruction" Srila Prabhupada says that a kanistha and a madhyama cannot give sufficient help, therefore one must ONLY accept an UTTAMA ADHIKARY as his guru, because other levels are "insufficient guidance." Where does Srila Prahbupada say a madhyama can take the place of an uttama acharya? Where was any of this mentioned as the system for ISKCON, there will be madhyama gurus? It is not mentioned anywhere.]
YD: So actually its not 'unauthentic' in the Gaudiya Sampradaya for a Madhyam devotee to act as a guru.
[PADA: But you also have not even mentioned who your alleged madhyama guru is, you do not even have a madhyam guru, you have a theory only, no actual person is your madhayama guru, so you are a mayavadi. What madhyama guru exists even? Yuddhisthira has not mentioned ANY guru at all, he is tossing around bogus theories that have no actual application in reality. He has apparently no actual madhayama guru at all, he has nothing at all, just an idea that there may be some guru somewhere, mano rathena, he is a speculator.]
YD: Moreover, we find in Madhurya Kadambini, that how can a devotee fall down from the stage of Bhava. Bhava is right below the stage of Prema. It qualifies a sadhaka to enter Krishna's bhauma lila. In Chaitanya Charitamrita, Srila Prabhupada comments that the Brahman Stage, when the soul is liberated from the material conditioning, he is on the stage of Bhava. So Svarup Siddhi or what we call as 'Self-Realization' happens on the Stage of Bhava, i.e. knowing ones eternal relation with Krishna.
[PADA: OK, so Yuddhisthira has no guru, has no idea the etiquette of gurus, has no idea that you need to name your specific line by name, he is apparently discussing the Gaudiya Matha system of homosexual gurus? What system does he follow? He wants us to follow his system, but he does not tell us what system he follows himself? This is the blind leading the blind, he has no path, he has no guru at all, but he wants us to walk his path, and fall into a ditch where we cannot even name our guru anymore? By following Yuddhisthira, we can no longer even give the name of our guru! We forget who our guru is, and that means, .... we become blind men.]
YD: one can still falldown from that stage, so why can't any sadhaka below that stage falldown?
[PADA: Srila Prabhupada says that only an uttama adhikary can accept the sins of his disciples, and he says that when a neophyte allows people to touch his feet and act as a diksha guru, this neophyte accepts sins and thus the neophyte WILL FOR SURE then fall down or get very sick or both. So the sadhaka cannot act as a diksha guru and accept sins. The GBC is famous for saying their gurus accepted sins and fell down, but the sadhaka is forbidden from taking sins in the first place. Who is taking the sins (diksha) in Yuddhisthira's system? He apparently forgot that only an uttama can save others by eliminating their sins.]
YD: I'm sorry to say, but your understanding of Prabhupad's statement that he is in his books, is totally erroneous. What Prabhupad means is that he would continue to guide the devotees on the teachings of Pure devotion as the Siksha guru, while having the 'Current Link' in place. The sucession would go on, but the purity of the siddhanta's teachings will be maintained by Srila Prabhupada so regardless of a devotee's stage of Realization, we still have the siksa to guide us.
[PADA: What shiksha? Who is giving the shiksha? I hope Yuddhisthira is not referencing the Gaudiya Matha's "shiksha gurus for the GBC" who advised the GBC to make an illicit sex with men, women and children acharyas club?]
YD: But whats the use of writing any amount of 'reply papers' or whatever. Whats the use of claiming to have attended 10's of guru puja,100's of Bhagvatam Class,distributed 1000's of books if we haven't understood the simple message of Srila Prabhupada. We should this movement to be Lord Chaitanya's Harinam Sankirtan movement, this is not Lord Chaitanya's Prasadam distribution movement nor is it lord chaitanya's social reform movement or anyother thing. This is Lord Chaitanya's HARINAM SANKIRTAN movement.
[PADA: Right, so by the Gaudiya Matha's making homosexuals into gurus in 1936, they ruined their samkirtana movement, and after 1977, the same Gaudiya Matha deviants supported the GBC's homosexual guru program, and this ruined the samkirtana movement again.]
YD: So whats the use of spending the whole life without chanting Suddhanam even once? We should know that the syllables don't constitute the name. If we say krishna is non different from his name then what capacity do we have to chant his name while being materially conditioned. You should know that Nama Aparadh can atmost give you all the materially facility that you need. Nama Bhasa can at most give you Mukti, but never can they give you Prema, which is the most fundamental thing to enter the lila's of Krishna
Once few sankirtan devotees asked Prabhupad, 'how can we please you'' , he replied ''By becoming pure lovers of Krishna.'' The scope of the subject matter is vast and beyond the frame of this mail, if you are interested, I'm open to have a discussion on this matter with you.
Write to me, we can discuss this.
Yudhistir Govinda Das
Mobile: 9654789832
Skype: Yudhistir
[PADA: OK, first of all you have to identify your line, you have to learn basic siddhanta, you have to identify your line. ys pd]
I presume that you co-ordinate most of the Madhu's technical work and as I came across your site 'ISKCON Times', though its nice to post Srila Prabhupada's words on Guru Tattva, but sorry to say it but the most of your editors seem to be lacking the most rudimentary knowledge of the Siddhanta and the Sampradaic teachings. Otherwise, I personally prefer to stay away from these so called 'reform' debates, but seeing the atrocious of understanding that your men have on the Guru Tattva, I was forced to write to you. So I'm posting a small writeup on it (same which I sent your editors):
Dear Editor,
Its nice to see to you attempt to divulge into the Siddhanta for what otherwise would remain a topic of the esoterica. But what is the purpose of high high aggrandizing of supposedly proclaiming loyalty to the Archarya, when we don't even hold the capacity to understand the most fundamental concepts of Guru Tattva?
[PADA: Is Yuddhisthira dasa referencing the Gaudiya Matha's "guru tattva" wherein Sridhara Maharaja and company made homosexuals and deviants into their "acharyas" after 1936. And Narayana Maharaja then wrote a "Guru Tattva" booklet in 1997 (I have a copy) which says that "there was nothing wrong" with the 1936 homosexual acharya project very evidentally because, Narayana Maharaja also endorses homosexuals as acharyas? And both of them endorsed the GBC's homosexual pedophile guru lineage after 1977. Is this the "guru line" Yuddhisthira endorses? If so, which previous acharyas were homosexual pedophiles and which previous acharyas endorsed such lineages?
We have no idea because he does not say, but is appears Yuddhisthira is referencing the GBC whose acharyas are "engaged in illicit sex with men, women and children" after they accepted the post-1936 homosexual guru promoters - such as Sridhara maharaja and Narayana maharaja as their "shiksha guru advisors"? Yuddhisthira gives us no indication what guru lineage he is part of here? Or is he even in a guru line at all? Does he even accept anyone as his guru? The Goswamis would not even talk to a person unless they identified their lineage, and Lord Chaitanya's servants would not allow a person to converse with the Lord unless that person identified their lineage, but this Yuddhisthira fellow cannot even identify his own lineage? That means according to Srila Prabhupada -- he is his own guru, because he is not giving the name of his line?
In all Vedic debates one has to FIRST OF ALL identify: one's lineage, one's shastra, one's guru, and so on, and yet Yuddhisthira does not even know this etiquette? Yuddhisthira has no idea of Vedic etiquettes: one has to identify one's line of authority. Is Yuddhisthar a self made God-man with his own line? He is not part of a bona fide line or he would know this etiquette. According to Srila Prabhupada anyone who does not give the name of his guru and his line, he is a mayavadi, so the only thing this author has so far establised -- is that he is a mayavadi.]
YD: Yes, Pure devotee is the best Guru, but if have even attempted to study (what to speak of understanding!) the books of Srila Prabhupada and the Gaudiya acharya's carefully, you would know that Guru can be on any of 5 level based on his realization, so it would be preposterous to equate anyone and everyone with a Nityasiddha hoping to be on the same level at any given point of time.
[PADA: Where does Srila Prabhupada say that after he departs there will be five levels of gurus? Who is going to manage these five levels of gurus and which previous bona fide acharyas established this system of five levels of gurus? Who will determine who is on each of these five levels, .... ummm Mr. Yuddhisthira? OK, maybe, but so far he has not even identified who is an uttama in his system? Yuddhisthira is going to be the judge of who is on what of these five levels, but he cannot even identify the source of this concept -- that there are five types of gurus in our parampara? Where is this detailed by Srila Prabhupada and which previous acharyas ordered this system for after their departure? More importantly, where did Srila Prabhupada order this system of five types of gurus for ISKCON?]
YD: In Madhurya Kadambini, Srila Visvanath Cakravati mentions that even a Madhyama Adhikari can act as a Guru and in Harinam Cintamani Srila Bhaktivionda Thakur when he speaks on types of association, writes that of the Madhyam Adhikari is actually a very good sanga as he has freed himself from the gross anartha's and is determined in his goal. And more over he goes on say that of the types of association, the best one is with a Madhayama Adhikari.
[PADA: A Madhyama Adhikary is on the platform of anartha nrvritti, free from material desires, and yet the gurus promoted by the Gaudiya Matha and GBC are always caught being engaged in illicit sex with men, women and children, so they are not even kanisthas. Why are we discussing Madhyama when the people we are challenging are not even kanisthas? What does Madhyama level have to do with illicit sex acharyas, the topic at hand, anyway? In the "Nectar of Instruction" Srila Prabhupada says that a kanistha and a madhyama cannot give sufficient help, therefore one must ONLY accept an UTTAMA ADHIKARY as his guru, because other levels are "insufficient guidance." Where does Srila Prahbupada say a madhyama can take the place of an uttama acharya? Where was any of this mentioned as the system for ISKCON, there will be madhyama gurus? It is not mentioned anywhere.]
YD: So actually its not 'unauthentic' in the Gaudiya Sampradaya for a Madhyam devotee to act as a guru.
[PADA: But you also have not even mentioned who your alleged madhyama guru is, you do not even have a madhyam guru, you have a theory only, no actual person is your madhayama guru, so you are a mayavadi. What madhyama guru exists even? Yuddhisthira has not mentioned ANY guru at all, he is tossing around bogus theories that have no actual application in reality. He has apparently no actual madhayama guru at all, he has nothing at all, just an idea that there may be some guru somewhere, mano rathena, he is a speculator.]
YD: Moreover, we find in Madhurya Kadambini, that how can a devotee fall down from the stage of Bhava. Bhava is right below the stage of Prema. It qualifies a sadhaka to enter Krishna's bhauma lila. In Chaitanya Charitamrita, Srila Prabhupada comments that the Brahman Stage, when the soul is liberated from the material conditioning, he is on the stage of Bhava. So Svarup Siddhi or what we call as 'Self-Realization' happens on the Stage of Bhava, i.e. knowing ones eternal relation with Krishna.
[PADA: OK, so Yuddhisthira has no guru, has no idea the etiquette of gurus, has no idea that you need to name your specific line by name, he is apparently discussing the Gaudiya Matha system of homosexual gurus? What system does he follow? He wants us to follow his system, but he does not tell us what system he follows himself? This is the blind leading the blind, he has no path, he has no guru at all, but he wants us to walk his path, and fall into a ditch where we cannot even name our guru anymore? By following Yuddhisthira, we can no longer even give the name of our guru! We forget who our guru is, and that means, .... we become blind men.]
YD: one can still falldown from that stage, so why can't any sadhaka below that stage falldown?
[PADA: Srila Prabhupada says that only an uttama adhikary can accept the sins of his disciples, and he says that when a neophyte allows people to touch his feet and act as a diksha guru, this neophyte accepts sins and thus the neophyte WILL FOR SURE then fall down or get very sick or both. So the sadhaka cannot act as a diksha guru and accept sins. The GBC is famous for saying their gurus accepted sins and fell down, but the sadhaka is forbidden from taking sins in the first place. Who is taking the sins (diksha) in Yuddhisthira's system? He apparently forgot that only an uttama can save others by eliminating their sins.]
YD: I'm sorry to say, but your understanding of Prabhupad's statement that he is in his books, is totally erroneous. What Prabhupad means is that he would continue to guide the devotees on the teachings of Pure devotion as the Siksha guru, while having the 'Current Link' in place. The sucession would go on, but the purity of the siddhanta's teachings will be maintained by Srila Prabhupada so regardless of a devotee's stage of Realization, we still have the siksa to guide us.
[PADA: What shiksha? Who is giving the shiksha? I hope Yuddhisthira is not referencing the Gaudiya Matha's "shiksha gurus for the GBC" who advised the GBC to make an illicit sex with men, women and children acharyas club?]
YD: But whats the use of writing any amount of 'reply papers' or whatever. Whats the use of claiming to have attended 10's of guru puja,100's of Bhagvatam Class,distributed 1000's of books if we haven't understood the simple message of Srila Prabhupada. We should this movement to be Lord Chaitanya's Harinam Sankirtan movement, this is not Lord Chaitanya's Prasadam distribution movement nor is it lord chaitanya's social reform movement or anyother thing. This is Lord Chaitanya's HARINAM SANKIRTAN movement.
[PADA: Right, so by the Gaudiya Matha's making homosexuals into gurus in 1936, they ruined their samkirtana movement, and after 1977, the same Gaudiya Matha deviants supported the GBC's homosexual guru program, and this ruined the samkirtana movement again.]
YD: So whats the use of spending the whole life without chanting Suddhanam even once? We should know that the syllables don't constitute the name. If we say krishna is non different from his name then what capacity do we have to chant his name while being materially conditioned. You should know that Nama Aparadh can atmost give you all the materially facility that you need. Nama Bhasa can at most give you Mukti, but never can they give you Prema, which is the most fundamental thing to enter the lila's of Krishna
Once few sankirtan devotees asked Prabhupad, 'how can we please you'' , he replied ''By becoming pure lovers of Krishna.'' The scope of the subject matter is vast and beyond the frame of this mail, if you are interested, I'm open to have a discussion on this matter with you.
Write to me, we can discuss this.
Yudhistir Govinda Das
Mobile: 9654789832
Skype: Yudhistir
[PADA: OK, first of all you have to identify your line, you have to learn basic siddhanta, you have to identify your line. ys pd]
This is such a good response to the bogus points that YD writes in his mail :) I had such a good laugh...I hope he has read this response... :))
ReplyDelete