Locanandanda prabhu,
Hare Krishna.
Thanks for your response. You are saying that we should not be making this distinction, between who is the diksa guru and who is a siksa guru, that it is not important and not to label them, and that Prabhupada did not speak much about siksa and diksa. Why then is it important to label the new initiates as “grand disciples” ? What is the necessity of making this official distinction ? If these persons are simply conducting the initiation ceremonies “on behalf of Srila Prabhupada” as you say, and are not to receive worship, then what is the necessity of labeling the new initiates as their disciples and Prabhupadas grand disciples ? Is this not supporting a root cause of many of the problems of ISKCON which you speak of, by perpetuating this sense of distinction, that encourages these people to think that they have some ownership and lordship over the those devotees who are initiated ? And which encourages these people to expect special honor or worship and all the entitlements of having their own disciples ? Does it not encourage this elitist type of thinking that “I am a Prabhupada disciple”, I am special ?
Actually, Prabhupada uses the terms siksa and diksa many times throughout his books and teachings, wheres, the term grand disciple he used how many times, once ?
You agree that only Srila Prabhupada is to be worshiped, but yet you say that new initiates are not his disciples. As quoted before, Lord Krishna states ” “Our next spiritual master is he who initiates us into transcendental knowledge, and he is to be worshiped as much as I am.” So by insisting that these people are the one’s giving initiation, and by saying that the initiated disciples are their own, you are supporting the idea that these people should receive special honor and worship, position, recognition, etc. You are distinguishing between who is a “Prabhupada disciple” and who is not, and this seems to perpetuate the core issue of ISKCON’s problems.
As shown, initiation is not simply a ceremony, but more importantly, the transmission of transcendental knowledge. And that is being primarily received from Srila Prabhupada through his vani. How are these people actually “giving diksa” if their purpose is for the most part to simply conduct the ceremony ? If I undergo a ceremony with one of these persons, and then maybe correspond with that person a few times, or maybe not at all, while all the time the main source of knowledge and instruction is coming from Srila Prabhupada, and my worship is directed to Prabhupada, then what makes me that other person’s disciple ? Simply because they have conducted the ceremony ? Prabhupada says the ceremony is not very important, not even completely necessary. Yet you are placing so much emphasis on the ceremony.
The argument that devotees who support the ritvik system only accept Prabhupada, and give no importance to anyone else, is not true. Someone may think like that, but that is not how it is meant to work. Other instructing gurus still have their importance and necessity, but it is Prabhupada who is the primary spiritual master, the only one who is worshiped by everyone, and whose vani is the main source of instruction. The person who conducts the ceremony may be giving instructions, and therefore a devotee may be his disciple in the sense of a siksa relationship, but the devotees primary spiritual master would be Prabhupada. As pointed out, Prabhupada says “Actually, you have only one Spiritual Master, who initiates you, just as you have only one father” (Nov 20, 1971 Letter to Sri Galim). So this one person whom Prabhupada refers to here, would be himself. How could you say he is not the one ? If you say he is not the initiator, then you are saying it is not him, but someone else who is a devotees primary guru and object of worship. This is misdirecting the focus of devotees to people other than Prabhupada and is lessening the importance of Prabhupada in their spiritual lives. Is that not a disservice ?
You have stated: “Neither did Srila Prabhupada ever say he would continue to initiate ISKCON devotees when he would no longer be physically present. In fact, as I have been pointing out, he said exactly the opposite.” Please quote where exactly did Prabhupada say such a thing. From what I understand, Prabhupada indicated that his books would remain for many generations to come. In this way the generations could continue to be initated by him through the transmission of transcendental knowledge.
Also you have stated “Maybe Bhakta Hugh would like to confirm that while Srila Prabhupada was initiating disciples in ISKCON, he was simultaneously initiating disciples on another planet or in another galaxy as part of nitya-lila, his eternal pastime.” Such a thing no one could know for certain except by revelation, but you are saying that the idea is absurd, how is that ? A mahabhagavata is not limited like that, he can expand his presence and exist simultaneously in different places. As Lord Krishna can expand, so can a pure devotee to the extent that he is empowered by the Lord. It is not beyond the realm of possibilty. The idea that he cannot is putting limitation on the pure devotee and degree to which Lord Krishna can empower him. Why put limitations on the pure devotee who is supposed to be empowered by the Lord to do anything that is necessary to deliver the conditioned souls ?
Again as pointed out, Prabhupada mentioned “grand disciples” and “his disciple”, but later said “when I order”. After that, where was that order ever actually given ? And how will Prabhupada’s final written will be obeyed where he says that only “my iniitated disciple” can manage ISKCON properties ? Please answer these questions.
It would be wonderful if all the senior devotees could rather encourage the world to develop faith in being Prabhupada’s disciple and in this way all can develop the faith that they are connected directly to a spirital master who is for certain, without question, a first class pure devotee who will never fall down, and who can for certain take us back home to Godhead. By encouraging that everyone cannot be his disciple, but rather must be a disciple of persons who are voted in, and who are regularly prone to fall downs, this is undermining the success of this movement and encouraging a sense of false worship, position, recognition, and all the problems that come along. Please help us to develop our faith that Prabhupada is our saviour, that he is our worshipable spiritual master and that we are all his family of disciples connected to him directly. Please do not support that which encourages cheating and the breakdown of faith in the process of Krishna Consciousness.
Please, let’s not let being a Prabhupada disciple be a form of elitism which encourages the false egos of a limited group of people, but let us encourage that Prabhupada’s shelter is open to the whole world now and for future generations.
Thank you kindly,
Bhakta Sean
Hare Krishna.
Thanks for your response. You are saying that we should not be making this distinction, between who is the diksa guru and who is a siksa guru, that it is not important and not to label them, and that Prabhupada did not speak much about siksa and diksa. Why then is it important to label the new initiates as “grand disciples” ? What is the necessity of making this official distinction ? If these persons are simply conducting the initiation ceremonies “on behalf of Srila Prabhupada” as you say, and are not to receive worship, then what is the necessity of labeling the new initiates as their disciples and Prabhupadas grand disciples ? Is this not supporting a root cause of many of the problems of ISKCON which you speak of, by perpetuating this sense of distinction, that encourages these people to think that they have some ownership and lordship over the those devotees who are initiated ? And which encourages these people to expect special honor or worship and all the entitlements of having their own disciples ? Does it not encourage this elitist type of thinking that “I am a Prabhupada disciple”, I am special ?
Actually, Prabhupada uses the terms siksa and diksa many times throughout his books and teachings, wheres, the term grand disciple he used how many times, once ?
You agree that only Srila Prabhupada is to be worshiped, but yet you say that new initiates are not his disciples. As quoted before, Lord Krishna states ” “Our next spiritual master is he who initiates us into transcendental knowledge, and he is to be worshiped as much as I am.” So by insisting that these people are the one’s giving initiation, and by saying that the initiated disciples are their own, you are supporting the idea that these people should receive special honor and worship, position, recognition, etc. You are distinguishing between who is a “Prabhupada disciple” and who is not, and this seems to perpetuate the core issue of ISKCON’s problems.
As shown, initiation is not simply a ceremony, but more importantly, the transmission of transcendental knowledge. And that is being primarily received from Srila Prabhupada through his vani. How are these people actually “giving diksa” if their purpose is for the most part to simply conduct the ceremony ? If I undergo a ceremony with one of these persons, and then maybe correspond with that person a few times, or maybe not at all, while all the time the main source of knowledge and instruction is coming from Srila Prabhupada, and my worship is directed to Prabhupada, then what makes me that other person’s disciple ? Simply because they have conducted the ceremony ? Prabhupada says the ceremony is not very important, not even completely necessary. Yet you are placing so much emphasis on the ceremony.
The argument that devotees who support the ritvik system only accept Prabhupada, and give no importance to anyone else, is not true. Someone may think like that, but that is not how it is meant to work. Other instructing gurus still have their importance and necessity, but it is Prabhupada who is the primary spiritual master, the only one who is worshiped by everyone, and whose vani is the main source of instruction. The person who conducts the ceremony may be giving instructions, and therefore a devotee may be his disciple in the sense of a siksa relationship, but the devotees primary spiritual master would be Prabhupada. As pointed out, Prabhupada says “Actually, you have only one Spiritual Master, who initiates you, just as you have only one father” (Nov 20, 1971 Letter to Sri Galim). So this one person whom Prabhupada refers to here, would be himself. How could you say he is not the one ? If you say he is not the initiator, then you are saying it is not him, but someone else who is a devotees primary guru and object of worship. This is misdirecting the focus of devotees to people other than Prabhupada and is lessening the importance of Prabhupada in their spiritual lives. Is that not a disservice ?
You have stated: “Neither did Srila Prabhupada ever say he would continue to initiate ISKCON devotees when he would no longer be physically present. In fact, as I have been pointing out, he said exactly the opposite.” Please quote where exactly did Prabhupada say such a thing. From what I understand, Prabhupada indicated that his books would remain for many generations to come. In this way the generations could continue to be initated by him through the transmission of transcendental knowledge.
Also you have stated “Maybe Bhakta Hugh would like to confirm that while Srila Prabhupada was initiating disciples in ISKCON, he was simultaneously initiating disciples on another planet or in another galaxy as part of nitya-lila, his eternal pastime.” Such a thing no one could know for certain except by revelation, but you are saying that the idea is absurd, how is that ? A mahabhagavata is not limited like that, he can expand his presence and exist simultaneously in different places. As Lord Krishna can expand, so can a pure devotee to the extent that he is empowered by the Lord. It is not beyond the realm of possibilty. The idea that he cannot is putting limitation on the pure devotee and degree to which Lord Krishna can empower him. Why put limitations on the pure devotee who is supposed to be empowered by the Lord to do anything that is necessary to deliver the conditioned souls ?
Again as pointed out, Prabhupada mentioned “grand disciples” and “his disciple”, but later said “when I order”. After that, where was that order ever actually given ? And how will Prabhupada’s final written will be obeyed where he says that only “my iniitated disciple” can manage ISKCON properties ? Please answer these questions.
It would be wonderful if all the senior devotees could rather encourage the world to develop faith in being Prabhupada’s disciple and in this way all can develop the faith that they are connected directly to a spirital master who is for certain, without question, a first class pure devotee who will never fall down, and who can for certain take us back home to Godhead. By encouraging that everyone cannot be his disciple, but rather must be a disciple of persons who are voted in, and who are regularly prone to fall downs, this is undermining the success of this movement and encouraging a sense of false worship, position, recognition, and all the problems that come along. Please help us to develop our faith that Prabhupada is our saviour, that he is our worshipable spiritual master and that we are all his family of disciples connected to him directly. Please do not support that which encourages cheating and the breakdown of faith in the process of Krishna Consciousness.
Please, let’s not let being a Prabhupada disciple be a form of elitism which encourages the false egos of a limited group of people, but let us encourage that Prabhupada’s shelter is open to the whole world now and for future generations.
Thank you kindly,
Bhakta Sean
Dear All,
ReplyDeleteAll Glories to Srila Prabhupad! Hare Krsna!!!
FACT: No one is qualified to take the place of Srila Prabhupad. ( I know that might be hard for you to hear if you have the disease of wanting to be guru yourself. )
People like Locanananda want to nitpick words, for the obstinate will make every attempt to usurp Prabhupads position and themselves take the place of Prabhupad. Havent we seen enough problems the bogus gurus create such as child molesting and homicide, broken marriages and suicide? We even have the recent example of David Bruce Hughes to top it all off. Its been very colorful to say the least.
TRANSLATION: Sri Uddhava said: You may take lessons from the great learned sage Maitreya, who is nearby and who is worshipable for reception of transcendental knowledge. He was directly instructed by the Personality of Godhead while He was about to quit this mortal world.
PURPORT: Although one may be well versed in the transcendental science, one should be careful about the offense of maryada-vyatikrama, or impertinently surpassing a greater personality. According to scriptural injunction one should be very careful of transgressing the law of maryada-vyatikrama because by so doing one loses his duration of life, his opulence, fame and piety and the blessings of all the world. To be well versed in the transcendental science necessitates awareness of the techniques of spiritual science. Uddhava, being well aware of all these technicalities of transcendental science, advised Vidura to approach Maitreya Rsi to receive transcendental knowledge. Vidura wanted to accept Uddhava as his spiritual master, but Uddhava did not accept the post because Vidura was as old as Uddhava’s father and therefore Uddhava could not accept him as his disciple, especially when Maitreya was present nearby. The rule is that in the presence of a higher personality one should not be very eager to impart instructions, even if one is competent and well versed. So Uddhava decided to send an elderly person like Vidura to Maitreya, another elderly person, but he was well versed also because he was directly instructed by the Lord while He was about to quit this mortal world. Since both Uddhava and Maitreya were directly instructed by the Lord, both had the authority to become the spiritual master of Vidura or anyone else, but Maitreya, being elderly, had the first claim to becoming the spiritual master, especially for Vidura, who was much older than Uddhava. One should not be eager to become a spiritual master cheaply for the sake of profit and fame, but should become a spiritual master only for the service of the Lord. The Lord never tolerates the impertinence of maryada-vyatikrama. One should never pass over the honor due to an elderly spiritual master in the interests of one’s own personal gain and fame. Impertinence on the part of the pseudo spiritual master is very risky to progressive spiritual realization.
(S.B. 3.4.26)
Prabhupad states VERY clearly that he will live forever in his books. Arent there enough audios and recordings of Prabhupad to take instruction from? FACT: Vani is more important than Vapuh, because a sincere disciple only needs the Vani to carry out the orders of the spiritual master.
Note how it says above “The rule is that in the presence of a higher personality one should not be very eager to impart instructions, even if one is competent and well versed.” Prabhupad is present in his books and his audio recordings. SO HE IS STILL WITH US! HE IS ABLE TO INITIATE! PRABHUPAD WILL NEVER DIE BUT THE BOGUS GURUS WILL!!!!! PERIOD!!!
much love,
Bhakta peter
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteDear All,
ReplyDeleteAll glories to Srila Prabhupad, who can give initiation because a nitya-siddha Vaisnava devotee never dies!
Just to put the final nail in the coffin…
[...]
“One should take initiation from a bonafide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, who is authorised by his predecessor spiritual master. This is called diksa-vidhana.
(-Srimad-Bhagavatam, 4.8.54, purport)
[...]
Srila Prabhupad never ‘authorized his predecessor’, that is a FACT! So…no one except Prabhupad can give true diksa.
PRABHUPAD WILL LIVE FOREVER IN HIS BOOKS!
[...]
Reporter (2): What will happen to the movement in the United States when you die?
Prabhupāda: I will never die.
Devotees: Jaya! Hari bol! (laughter)
Prabhupāda: I shall live for my books, and you will utilize.
[-750716pc.sf]
[...]
NOTE: Prabhupad says, “AND YOU WILL UTILIZE” (his books and instructions)
He never says you utilize his Predecessor, because he never appointed a predecessor. He says we will utilize his Vani. Vani is better than Vapuh, that is a fact. A mosquito needs Vapuh because he wants to suck the blood from your arm, but a devotee only needs the Vani to follow the orders of the spiritual master thus pleasing him.
AND NOW FOR THE GRANDE FINALE. HERE PRABHUAD TALKS ABOUT HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH HIS GURU BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASWATI THAKURA EVEN THOUGH HE ONLY MET HIM A FEW TIMES.
This is indeed the final nail in the coffin. After reading this simple quote of Prabhupad, it can be clear even to a mudha like me that anyone trying to take the place of Prabhupad is a resident of naraka-loka (hell).
[...]
Prabhupada: ... So he wanted this, and he is not… It is not that he is dead and gone. That is not spiritual understanding. Even ordinary living being, he does not die.
Na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20].
And what to speak of such exalted, authorized personality like Bhaktisiddhānta. He is seeing. I never feel that I am alone. Of course, when I came to your country without any friend, without any means… Practically, just like a vagabond I came. But I had full faith that “My Guru Mahārāja is with me.” I never lost this faith, and that is fact. There are two words, vāṇī and vapuḥ. Vānī means words, and vapuḥ means this physical body. So vāṇī is more important than the vapuḥ. Vapuḥ will be finished. This is material body. It will be finished. That is the nature. But if we keep to the vāṇī, to the words of spiritual master, then we remain very fixed up. It doesn’t matter.
Just like Bhagavad-gītā. It was spoken five thousand years ago. But if you keep to the words of Kṛṣṇa, then it is always fresh and guiding. Not that because Arjuna personally listened to Kṛṣṇa about the instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, therefore he knew it. That is not the fact. If you accept Bhagavad-gītā as it is, then you should know that Kṛṣṇa is present before you in His words in the Bhagavad-gītā. This is called spiritual realization.
[-750302BA.ATL]
[...]
OK thats it. MMM-kay?
Anyone that says things like ‘Prahupad is dead and gone’ so we ‘cant take initiation from him’ is himself spiritually dead, as confirmed by Prabhupad above. Only a fool desiring to drink the donkey urine of name, fame and other similar dog-stool material benefits will say otherwise. Go to the light, go to Prabhupad! Reject the Putana gurus!
love,
peter