Hare Krishna!
I believe this email goes to Puranjana prabhu, correct me if I am wrong.
[PADA: Correct.]
I first randomly typed in “HareKrsna.org” in 2007 when I started getting interested in KC and ISKCON, I also got exposed to the other side of things; Ritvik views, IRM etc. Whatever is contained in these sites talk about things that happened in ISKCON almost 30 years ago.
*** Surely the current state of ISKCON is much aligned to Srila Prabhupada’s ideals right?
[PADA: What Srila Prabhupada taught us is -- that it is a severe offense to consider that the guru parampara / representatives of God / shaksat hari tvena gurus are (or could be) debauchees. Whereas GBC spokesman Jayadvaita swami writes for example, that in ISKCON, gurus are often caught engaged in illicit sex with men, women and maybe children. Srila Prabhupada says that the guru is a resident of Krishna loka, so how can the residents of Krishna loka behave like fallen debauchees?
That means they are insulting the residents of Krishna loka by saying they are often fallen debauchees. Then again, even us common neophytes are not engaged in illicit sex with men, women and children. So the GBC are making the standards for acharyas to be -- less than the ordinary man. At the same time, anyone who says the parampara is NOT contaminated is shunned, banned, kicked out, harassed, threatened etc.]
*** And surely not all of the over 100 sannyasis are deviants.
[PADA: The official position of the GBC is that Lord Krishna's successors gurus are often deviants. If any one of the 100 sannyasas has complained that the GBC policy is wrong, who is that person? We have never seen any one of these 100 people write a position paper saying that the GBC idea that gurus are often debauchees, is the wrong idea? Who has made an official complaint about this policy?]
*** Much of the ‘sannyasis’ that were more criminal in nature fell down and left ISKCON, correct?
[PADA: OK this is the whole problem right here, the GBC says that gurus are often criminals who fall down and leave ISKCON. The members of the parampara are falling down and have been criminals? And when we said this criminal behavior needs to be fixed, we were kicked out. So they enforced the criminal behavior. Which GBC leader or sannyasa has come out in public and decried the GBC policy that acharyas are often debauchees and criminals? And that the people who support that system are bona fide?]
*** The only reason I got interested in ISKCON is because of hearing recordings of Niranjana maharaj lectures and the lectures of Prabhupada disciples in Alachua. And there are so many sincere devotees in ISKCON.
[PADA: OK that is nice, but to say that the successors to God are often debauchees is not the teachings of any of the acharyas, or Krishna. If the acharyas are falling down left, right and center, then how can the neophyte expect to make any progress? Its not only an offense to the acharyas, its creating a hopeless and helpless attitude -- that progress is almost impossible, or progress can never be made, so people give up altogether. And many thousands have done so already. If the acharya is often falling down, then, why bother trying at all, its hopeless-ness. There are many sincere people, ok that may be, but there were many sincere people in the Catholic church in the medieval times -- who thought that it was a good idea to burn witches. They were sincere, but mis-informed. So first of all, we'd like to know your feelings on these points.]
*** I am interested to know your comments on what I’m saying about ISKCON right now in 2014. And what would you recommend a person like me who is a fairly new bhakta, someone who wants to take initiation etc. How should I pursue the path of bhakti. Should I take initiation from a guru or not.
Thank you,
[PADA: Here are some additional considerations:]
Dear Gaura Kesava and all Prabhus, Please accept my respectful obeisances.
All glories to our jagat guru Srila Prabhupada!
The debate goes on. I’ve been watching on the sidelines this internet istagosthi and now I had to jump in. I will be short and to the point because I am typing on my iphone.
I was personally serving Srila Prabhupada back in 1977 when he first decided he was going to leave the planet. I heard him say that he wanted the ritvik initiation system for his movement after his departure. This is documented in the July 9th 1977 Newsletter to all Temple Presidents and G.B.C.’s. That letter was dictated from a July 7th 1977 Garden conversation which I heard. That is our sastra! That is specific. You say we must follow sastra; there it is. Is there anymore sastra after that date that would change anything?
We need the guru to explain the sastra to us; otherwise we will pick and choose whatever suits us and end up not following the real orders of the spiritual master. Srila Prabhupada warned us about ‘over-intelligence’ and I think that is what we have here. Instead of us trying to figure out how initiations should go on from (which) sastra we should instead try to figure out what our guru said and did. He had the ritvik system up and running for years before he left, physically and he wanted that to continue as he said on July 7th 1977. It’s on tape!
I have been trying to speak to the GBC for 32 years now but so far my requests have fallen on deaf ears. They say they have no time every time every year I ask to attend their meetings to discuss this most important issue. Most of them are initiating on their own so you can imagine why they won’t discuss it. It might mess up their retirement plans. Profit, distinction and of course adoration.
If we leave it up to the new devotees to check out their gurus they will be misled. Then later if their ‘guru’ falls down they will probably be disheartened and leave KRSNA Consciousness altogether as so many have. That is why Srila Prabhupada most intelligently set up the ritvik initiation system for his movement.
If someone wants to be a diksa guru he or she must be able to deliver them back to Godhead. They must have full KRSNA prema. They must do this in their own temples; not Srila Prabhupada’s! That is Vaisnava ettiquette. Srila Prabhupada did not try to become a diksa guru in the Gaudiya Math. The self-effulgent acharya can attract the souls and build his/her movement from the ground up. That’s what Srila Prabhupada the acharya did; that’s what we need to do.
We’ve got guru fever. Sikas gurus we can and should be but diksa guru is one for ISKCON, Srila Prabhupada! It’s simple for some but complicated for the over-intelligent speculators. I hope this helped.
Haven’t seen you for many years since you were with Dristadyumna I’m Hawaii. Glad to see you are hanging in there but have faith in His Divine Grace; he’s there also if you let him.
Hoping this meets you and all the Vaisnavas well and advancing in KC
Your servant,
Gauridasa Pandita Dasa
I believe this email goes to Puranjana prabhu, correct me if I am wrong.
[PADA: Correct.]
I first randomly typed in “HareKrsna.org” in 2007 when I started getting interested in KC and ISKCON, I also got exposed to the other side of things; Ritvik views, IRM etc. Whatever is contained in these sites talk about things that happened in ISKCON almost 30 years ago.
[PADA: The GBC has not changed their core issue problems in 30 years? For example, they said in 1979 that Lord Krishna's guru successors are subject to illusion, failure, illicit sex, criminal behavior and so forth. That is STILL their position. For example, GBC spokesman Anuttama dasa said at their 2014 GBC meeting -- that its common for gurus (in our Vaishnava line) to fall into mundane illusion, and this was going on at the time of Lord Chaitanya -- and previous to Him.
In short, they have been establishing that the guru parampara from Krishna is -- eternally populated by deviants, and it has been that way all along since time immemorial. Since God is the leader and source of HIS guru parampara, how is it contaminated at any point?
Worse, the big GBC leaders just NOW buried Kirtanananda in a "samadhi" in Vrndavana, so they are still promoting the worship of their worst deviants, even today. Rupa Goswami is buried in a samadhi, and so are their worst criminal deviants? That means they are going backward, not forward. That also means they are insulting and attacking the holy dham, in addition to attacking the guru parampara. Only a person of parampara member qualification is fit to be buried in a samadhi in the holy land, and yet the GBC does just the opposite, they select their worst case deviants to be buried in a samadhi there.
And just because they have been promoting the worship of deviants for 30 years, and they are NOW placing their worst case deviants into "Vrndavana samadhis," this does not make their process bona fide? If we say "the sun is the same color as a green apple," ok -- even if we say that for 30 years, that does not make the sun the same color as a green apple?
Whereas our Prabhupadanuga / ritvik idea is to say -- the acharyas are NOT subject to falling into debauchee behavior, and that is why we are banned from ISKCON. In short, anyone who says that acharyas are ETERNAL, PURE and are NOT falling down is banned from the current ISKCON society. That would be like -- anyone who proclaimed that people like Jesus must be pure, being banned from Christianity? What kind of society bans anyone who says the guru is pure and is not a debauchee?
The leaders of current ISKCON are preaching that the guru parampara from Krishna is commonly contaminated by mundane degradation. This is the basic premise they had all along since 1978, and that is the principle they STILL operate on, i.e. the guru has to be worshiped as if he is "as good as God" (shaksat hari tvena) simultaneously, he may be subject to mundane illusion, failure, illicit and criminal behaviors etc. If the guru is "as good as God," and he can fail, then they de facto are saying God is subject to failure.
Of course the next problem is -- that the same people who brought about the policy of demonizing the Srila Prabhupada disciples, resulting in our being banned, beaten and even assassinated, are still in charge, such as Jayapataka, Hrdayananda and others. And many of their henchmen like Umapati, Devarmrta, Kuladri, Radhanath, Svavasa, Badrinaryana and many similar others -- are also still in charge.
So their bogus "gurus are falling down" siddhanta has not changed, and many of the people who caused all the troubles in the first place are still in posts of higher authority. What has actually changed, other than a few cosmetics? In 1986 they had a "guru reform," so now they are saying gurus deviate into illicit behaviors and thus need reform. Which previous acharyas needed reform from deviations?
Sorry, none of these issues has ever been cleared up. Instead, its just getting worse, now they are openly saying the entire guru parampara has had gurus falling into debauchee behaviors the whole while. The parampara has never been pure at any time apparently? So if we say that the guru is subject to illusion and debauchee behavior, then what is the standard for guru? There is none.]
In short, they have been establishing that the guru parampara from Krishna is -- eternally populated by deviants, and it has been that way all along since time immemorial. Since God is the leader and source of HIS guru parampara, how is it contaminated at any point?
Worse, the big GBC leaders just NOW buried Kirtanananda in a "samadhi" in Vrndavana, so they are still promoting the worship of their worst deviants, even today. Rupa Goswami is buried in a samadhi, and so are their worst criminal deviants? That means they are going backward, not forward. That also means they are insulting and attacking the holy dham, in addition to attacking the guru parampara. Only a person of parampara member qualification is fit to be buried in a samadhi in the holy land, and yet the GBC does just the opposite, they select their worst case deviants to be buried in a samadhi there.
And just because they have been promoting the worship of deviants for 30 years, and they are NOW placing their worst case deviants into "Vrndavana samadhis," this does not make their process bona fide? If we say "the sun is the same color as a green apple," ok -- even if we say that for 30 years, that does not make the sun the same color as a green apple?
Whereas our Prabhupadanuga / ritvik idea is to say -- the acharyas are NOT subject to falling into debauchee behavior, and that is why we are banned from ISKCON. In short, anyone who says that acharyas are ETERNAL, PURE and are NOT falling down is banned from the current ISKCON society. That would be like -- anyone who proclaimed that people like Jesus must be pure, being banned from Christianity? What kind of society bans anyone who says the guru is pure and is not a debauchee?
The leaders of current ISKCON are preaching that the guru parampara from Krishna is commonly contaminated by mundane degradation. This is the basic premise they had all along since 1978, and that is the principle they STILL operate on, i.e. the guru has to be worshiped as if he is "as good as God" (shaksat hari tvena) simultaneously, he may be subject to mundane illusion, failure, illicit and criminal behaviors etc. If the guru is "as good as God," and he can fail, then they de facto are saying God is subject to failure.
Of course the next problem is -- that the same people who brought about the policy of demonizing the Srila Prabhupada disciples, resulting in our being banned, beaten and even assassinated, are still in charge, such as Jayapataka, Hrdayananda and others. And many of their henchmen like Umapati, Devarmrta, Kuladri, Radhanath, Svavasa, Badrinaryana and many similar others -- are also still in charge.
So their bogus "gurus are falling down" siddhanta has not changed, and many of the people who caused all the troubles in the first place are still in posts of higher authority. What has actually changed, other than a few cosmetics? In 1986 they had a "guru reform," so now they are saying gurus deviate into illicit behaviors and thus need reform. Which previous acharyas needed reform from deviations?
Sorry, none of these issues has ever been cleared up. Instead, its just getting worse, now they are openly saying the entire guru parampara has had gurus falling into debauchee behaviors the whole while. The parampara has never been pure at any time apparently? So if we say that the guru is subject to illusion and debauchee behavior, then what is the standard for guru? There is none.]
*** Surely the current state of ISKCON is much aligned to Srila Prabhupada’s ideals right?
[PADA: What Srila Prabhupada taught us is -- that it is a severe offense to consider that the guru parampara / representatives of God / shaksat hari tvena gurus are (or could be) debauchees. Whereas GBC spokesman Jayadvaita swami writes for example, that in ISKCON, gurus are often caught engaged in illicit sex with men, women and maybe children. Srila Prabhupada says that the guru is a resident of Krishna loka, so how can the residents of Krishna loka behave like fallen debauchees?
That means they are insulting the residents of Krishna loka by saying they are often fallen debauchees. Then again, even us common neophytes are not engaged in illicit sex with men, women and children. So the GBC are making the standards for acharyas to be -- less than the ordinary man. At the same time, anyone who says the parampara is NOT contaminated is shunned, banned, kicked out, harassed, threatened etc.]
*** And surely not all of the over 100 sannyasis are deviants.
[PADA: The official position of the GBC is that Lord Krishna's successors gurus are often deviants. If any one of the 100 sannyasas has complained that the GBC policy is wrong, who is that person? We have never seen any one of these 100 people write a position paper saying that the GBC idea that gurus are often debauchees, is the wrong idea? Who has made an official complaint about this policy?]
*** Much of the ‘sannyasis’ that were more criminal in nature fell down and left ISKCON, correct?
[PADA: OK this is the whole problem right here, the GBC says that gurus are often criminals who fall down and leave ISKCON. The members of the parampara are falling down and have been criminals? And when we said this criminal behavior needs to be fixed, we were kicked out. So they enforced the criminal behavior. Which GBC leader or sannyasa has come out in public and decried the GBC policy that acharyas are often debauchees and criminals? And that the people who support that system are bona fide?]
*** The only reason I got interested in ISKCON is because of hearing recordings of Niranjana maharaj lectures and the lectures of Prabhupada disciples in Alachua. And there are so many sincere devotees in ISKCON.
*** I am interested to know your comments on what I’m saying about ISKCON right now in 2014. And what would you recommend a person like me who is a fairly new bhakta, someone who wants to take initiation etc. How should I pursue the path of bhakti. Should I take initiation from a guru or not.
Thank you,
[PADA: Here are some additional considerations:]
Dear Gaura Kesava and all Prabhus, Please accept my respectful obeisances.
All glories to our jagat guru Srila Prabhupada!
The debate goes on. I’ve been watching on the sidelines this internet istagosthi and now I had to jump in. I will be short and to the point because I am typing on my iphone.
I was personally serving Srila Prabhupada back in 1977 when he first decided he was going to leave the planet. I heard him say that he wanted the ritvik initiation system for his movement after his departure. This is documented in the July 9th 1977 Newsletter to all Temple Presidents and G.B.C.’s. That letter was dictated from a July 7th 1977 Garden conversation which I heard. That is our sastra! That is specific. You say we must follow sastra; there it is. Is there anymore sastra after that date that would change anything?
We need the guru to explain the sastra to us; otherwise we will pick and choose whatever suits us and end up not following the real orders of the spiritual master. Srila Prabhupada warned us about ‘over-intelligence’ and I think that is what we have here. Instead of us trying to figure out how initiations should go on from (which) sastra we should instead try to figure out what our guru said and did. He had the ritvik system up and running for years before he left, physically and he wanted that to continue as he said on July 7th 1977. It’s on tape!
I have been trying to speak to the GBC for 32 years now but so far my requests have fallen on deaf ears. They say they have no time every time every year I ask to attend their meetings to discuss this most important issue. Most of them are initiating on their own so you can imagine why they won’t discuss it. It might mess up their retirement plans. Profit, distinction and of course adoration.
If we leave it up to the new devotees to check out their gurus they will be misled. Then later if their ‘guru’ falls down they will probably be disheartened and leave KRSNA Consciousness altogether as so many have. That is why Srila Prabhupada most intelligently set up the ritvik initiation system for his movement.
If someone wants to be a diksa guru he or she must be able to deliver them back to Godhead. They must have full KRSNA prema. They must do this in their own temples; not Srila Prabhupada’s! That is Vaisnava ettiquette. Srila Prabhupada did not try to become a diksa guru in the Gaudiya Math. The self-effulgent acharya can attract the souls and build his/her movement from the ground up. That’s what Srila Prabhupada the acharya did; that’s what we need to do.
We’ve got guru fever. Sikas gurus we can and should be but diksa guru is one for ISKCON, Srila Prabhupada! It’s simple for some but complicated for the over-intelligent speculators. I hope this helped.
Haven’t seen you for many years since you were with Dristadyumna I’m Hawaii. Glad to see you are hanging in there but have faith in His Divine Grace; he’s there also if you let him.
Hoping this meets you and all the Vaisnavas well and advancing in KC
Your servant,
Gauridasa Pandita Dasa
==============================================
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